Rainy Day Chats About...Bambi?, Ep. 210

By NYPL Staff
February 10, 2022

Welcome to The Librarian Is In, The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next.

Book wheel in the Jagiellonian University Museum Krakow, from Wikimedia

Hi! Come on in out of the rain! What can I get you? Our menu is right here. Wait, this isn't a cozy coffee cafe? That's JUST Frank and Crystal's virtual backgrounds while they record? Well shucks. Then grab yourself a cup from the kitchen and curl up somewhere cozy of your own for this episode.

Frank discusses how Jefferson Market Library is finally (maybe!?) close to being reopened after renovations, and all the changes he hopes to implement related to multimedia. Crystal thinks he should also have a book wheel. Or at least they should go to Rochester on a field trip to see one on display.

Before they dove into their books, Frank announced that he's book-cheating on Crystal. (*dramatic gasp here!*) Frank and a fellow branch colleague have decided to read Anna Karenina together. Has anyone read Anna Karenina? Any advice to Frank before he starts on this journey?

This week Frank chose to read Bambi. Yes. Bambi. He saw a review inThe New Yorker about a new edition and was intrigued.

Bambi: A Life in the Woods by Felix Salten

The classical tale of a young fawn's growing maturity and independence as he learns to face the hardships of his life.

Crystal read two books this week:

Belly of the Beast by Da'Shaun Harrison

An exploration of anti-fatness and anti-Blackness at the intersections of race, police violence, gender identity, fatness, and health.

Boys Run the Riot by Keito Gaku

Ryo knows he is transgender, although he cannot tell anyone until he discovers that Jin, a new student in his class, has the same taste in clothing as he does.

Tell us what everybody's talking about in your world of books and libraries! Suggest Hot Topix(TM)! Send an email or voice memo to podcasts[at]nypl.org.


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[Frank] Yeah. Hey, I was going to say, you've reached The Librarian Is In, like an answering machine. So you have reached The Librarian Is In, the New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next. I'm Frank.

[Crystal] And I'm Crystal.

[Frank] And please leave a message at the tone. There we go. Complicated start to a very simple homey podcast, right?

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] Cozy. It's rainy out.

[Crystal] Very cozy. We have our virtual backgrounds up, matching ones. So it feels like we're in the same rainy cafe.

[Frank] Yeah, talking about books, culture, and what to read next. I know it is rainy, but warmer. It's been very cold lately.

[Crystal] Yeah, definitely.

[Frank] Which it is winter, so what do you expect, kids?

[Crystal] I know. And then didn't you see that that groundhog died before he was going to tell us if winter was ending. So it's just going to [multiple speakers] forever.

[Frank] The groundhog was just like, you're on your own, kids. I don't even want to play anymore. Because we cannot plan for the future. I think we've learned that over the last two years. Planning for the future is a fool's game.

[Crystal] I found a something in my calendar I scheduled to like look up plane tickets to like a tropical island and I was like, oh, this was from before Omicron. I must delete this now because it's not happening.

[Frank] That's the thing. You can do the -- I guess you can do the best you can. What was I thinking about yesterday, related to that? About decision making. I just felt like I'm having -- I mean, I'm always very collaborative and I think, think, think, think, think about decisions related to the library and my life, I guess, but more of the library. And I felt like I've had a hard time and I think maybe it's partly the isolation and not being at my regular library, which is coming closer where they're cleaning up now at the Jefferson Market. They're not -- they're -- construction's sort of done. They're just doing the big cleanup, which is sort of exciting to see. Yesterday, I saw some spaces that were cleaned and it was like, oh, we're alive again. We're coming alive. So I was very heartened by that. But I don't know, what I was saying about decision-making. I feel like it's been harder because I can't talk to people as much in person. Everyone seems so distant, like people who have control over certain finances, stuff like that. But whatever. I don't know what I'm talking about. It'll be fine. I will make decisions, especially as deadlines loom. And I guess there are deadlines because we are going to open at some point soon.

[Crystal] When? We need the dates.

[Frank] Well, our cleaning is going to take a while and then the staff has to get back here and make -- set everything to rights. So it might be a couple of months still.

[Crystal] Okay.

[Frank] But it looks firmer than before because before, the construction was still happening and there were supply chain delays and things like that. And then, you know, obvious, you know, positive cases amongst the construction crew. I mean, that happens like it did -- does for us at the -- in the libraries. You know, some branches have to close, some have to have reduced hours. But you know what? That's drawing to a close because this spring, everything will be reborn anew and we will march bravely into the future full of life, friendship, and love, and books.

[Crystal] Let's like knock on goods to make sure this happens.

[Frank] I know.

[Crystal] [Multiple speakers] within around me.

[Frank] Do I have any word around?

[Crystal] I think I do.

[Frank] Well I had.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] I know, but there you go. What's happening in your world, darling?

[Crystal] That's a good question. Yeah, a lot of job stuff. A lot decision-making for sure. But also like hopeful for the future, right? Trying to not let the negativity win but sometimes it's hard. But yes, I think just having more sun in the spring and summer will do wonders, if nothing else.

[Frank] Yeah, and I think -- yeah. Yeah. There's nothing to say about that. I mean, I don't want to go down that road. I was just going to be like, well, there's more variants. But I think it's just like whipping its way and going to hit the road soon.

[Crystal] Yeah, I really hope so. I was thinking about this the other day about like just what life was like pre-pandemic and how like we would do like staff meetings, gatherings, and social events, and how we just took all of that for granted. It's -- I don't know. Will I ever go to a bar again? I don't know.

[Frank] Well, yeah. I mean, yeah, they will -- there probably -- I mean, we're so used to it that there probably will be some like, well, we're so close to each other, it feels weird, you know? But every -- nothing stays the same and we get -- you can get used to anything as we know, you know, wearing masks, things like that. Like we never thought we would do that and we are. But I was going to say something. I forgot. You said something about --

[Crystal] Optimism?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] Plane tickets to tropical islands?

[Frank] Going to a bar again. I've been trying to get this like audio-visual upgrade, like at Jefferson Market to -- I want to show like movies and surround sound and have like high-def and just get like a real theater experience. Because my point has always been about the library, is to bring people in to the spaces and to have some value that would be added to people's lives by that. It wasn't some -- it wasn't computers and online stuff, as you probably could figure out. But I know that our online meetings and programs and things like that will probably -- will be a part of our landscape. I mean, there are people who attend New York Public Library programs all over the world and I don't know if we can lose that in some ways. But my focus has always been that in-person. So I was doing -- getting quotes for this project and all the vendors were like, you know, oh, so do you want like streaming capability to stream these programs? And I've always been like, people have asked, have you recorded programs at my particular library? And I'm always like, no, it had to be there. And I had a sort of superior, sorry, you have to come. You have to come in to experience the glory. And now I'm just like, should I record these?

[Crystal] You should.

[Frank] I don't know.

[Crystal] You should record them.

[Frank] You know what? [Multiple speakers] people will be doing it and I don't have to because their -- our branch -- you know, it doesn't matter what branch is doing the program if you're going remote, because you're not going to the branch. You can go to a program that's offered by a branch in the Bronx and be, you know, halfway around the world. So I want to be known as this sort of, you got to come into this beautiful building and enjoy your fellow colleagues and neighbors and experts and have a good time. And that's what I want. You know, you got to focus on something. I'm sure the staff and I will be doing online stuff, of course. I already know like a colleague of mine is like -- has this like great book discussion online. She wants to keep it online because it's most people from all over the place who can't travel as easily and that's fair. It's a balancing act as anything else in life. But I want to focus on my passion and -- but we'll see. Like I said, plan -- you can't plan. Like who knows where I'll be? I'm staring at myself on the screen and I can't stand it. So, you know, one day at a time. We'll see where we go with this.

[Crystal] Well, I know several people who are very excited for Jefferson Market to reopen because they keep asking me that question.

[Frank] Your roommates.

[Crystal] Yes, constantly. I was going to say like, you know, with the recording of different programs, like live programs, I totally respect the idea of like wanting to just have people come in and like inhabit the physical space. I also think it's worth doing just for archival purposes, just to have for yourself free and for the history of Jefferson Market. I think that's also kind of amazing. So consider it maybe for some, if you have like a really great author come in or presenter, record it and archive it.

[Frank] I guess my thing is that I want to not just have this static sort of like one short streaming thing. I want to -- if I'm going to record something, I want it to be spectacular, you know, and well done and like shot like by film students who know what they're doing and, you know, things -- maybe I could do that actually.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] In other words, add value to it rather than just like this sort of, you know, dead shot of an author on a stage with heads -- backs of heads that you see and.

[Crystal] So you want a camera crew to film you around.

[Frank] But I also like [multiple speakers] yeah.

[Crystal] Like [multiple speakers]

[Frank] I always want big stuff. I always want it all. That's probably the other thing about decision-making with projects, is that I want to just do everything. Everything I want to do, I want to do, but of course there's limitations like budget and stuff like that. So it's hard to decide amongst my baby ideas about who to pick.

[Crystal] Well, I would watch a Jefferson Market documentary. Make that happen.

[Frank] Well, we -- oh, that's so sweet of you. I actually have been working with a honest to goodness filmmaker who has done short films that we've put on Instagram and are on the YouTube channel about the library and their vision is to actually do a bigger -- incorporate that into a bigger documentary, which I want to do again, see if we could do that in the -- in this year or coming up. And, you know, the videos were sort of designed to also just keep people aware of Jefferson Market and that we're coming back. We're coming. So we had like a little tour of the tower. We had, you know, a couple of really cool, well-shot, beautiful videos and -- but I've realized I've made myself a liar so many times because, you know, the opening date has been pushed back and I think one of the videos says, opening early winter or late fall and it's now mid-winter so.

[Crystal] Well, did they say late fall 2021? Because you can just add in the 2022 if you need to.

[Frank] I know. I know. But that's the way it goes, you know. It's the way it goes.

[Crystal] Yeah, and I think that the delays are expected, as you said, because there have been so many supply chain issues.

[Frank] I mean the public -- it's -- yeah, the public has been good about it, that I run into on the street. They're usually very like, I get it, I get it. And it's true. It's hard to tease out the problems, because they're so many. It's like, oh, the pandemic, the supply chain issue. It's a natural construction problem. And so it's like, there's all these elements that it's like, you can't really look at one and say that's the reason why. Because it's like, oh, right construction staff is out because of the pandemic. Or, oh right supply chain stuff, you know. I ordered a dictionary stand for the branch that I'm --

[Crystal] A dictionary stand. Wait, what's that?

[Frank] Well, what do you do like an art book display on it? Have open books on it and attract people who can stand there and leaf through a big art book they might not want to pull out.

[Crystal] Oh, yes. I love that.

[Frank] And it still hasn't arrived because it's just like, you know, sitting in a container offshore.

[Crystal] Like a podium?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] Have you seen one of those old -- I don't even know what the name of it is, but it's like a wheel that has a bunch of different, like bookstands on it. You can -- maybe I'm making this up. Maybe this isn't a real thing. I'm going to have to find the picture so that you see. I thought it was like a something I saw online. Okay, maybe I'm making this up.

[Frank] Wait, what is it?

[Crystal] Like a book. I'm going to kind of Google this. I think I saw one that was maybe like a historical object, right? Like online. I'll have to find it later.

[Frank] Just calm down and focus. What do you mean a wheel?

[Crystal] Like can have a breath. Okay. Oh, wait, wait. I have a picture. It's called a book wheel. It was invented in 1588, according to Wikipedia because this is just where I just Googled, by an Italian military engineer, Agostino Ramelli. Here, I'll send you the link of it and I think you should have it remade for Jefferson Market.

[Frank] Huh? Well.

[Crystal] Here's the link.

[Frank] You did?

[Crystal] Okay, it's in the chat now. Can you imagine somebody sitting there with a chair and just flipping through this wheel full of like --

[Frank] I see.

[Crystal] I want that.

[Frank] We should post this picture on the blog post because it's sort of cool. Actually, that's very cool.

[Crystal] With my reflection not good enough Frank.

[Frank] I didn't understand. I was thinking of like a podium where you stand in front of it and this wheel spins in front of you. But it's -- well, it is similar. You're like the round part is facing away from you and the sort of side part, like a water wheel, is sort of -- the round part is facing away from you and then sort of the interior of the wheel is facing the person seated. So like a water wheel, the books as you spin it, pass you by. We'll have to post a picture of that. But you know what you just did is what I was saying earlier about missing is just what you just did, is that talking to someone in casual conversation. I brought up the dictionary stand randomly and then you sort of had this, I thought an idea that may or may not come to fruition. But that's where I really thrive, is when someone says, oh, I saw this wheel, book wheel thing, and that would be like, even if I don't employ that, it sort of inspires me because now I'm like, oh, that's -- I would not -- I have never seen such a thing. And it could turn into some other idea. And whether it does or doesn't is not totally important, it's actually the process. And that's the process I like, what you just did. And that wouldn't have happened, I guess. Well, we are online. I guess, but we're talking you and I, I guess I could -- but we have to stop talking about this no more.

[Crystal] With the wheel, also it says. And there's a modern reproduction of the book wheel.

[Frank] In life, like I would just walk over to someone in the library, a colleague, and start talking. Or they would come to me or I would say, what do you think of this? And they would say that, that seems -- that's harder to organize. Now you have to organize this. Like, well, you know, you're at a different branch, I'm in a different branch. Can we -- our schedules, they're a match so we can go to Jefferson Market. Look, and it's too much mishigas. But thank you. You just sort of illustrated the point I wanted to make earlier -- I made earlier about this is how I love working and that doesn't always work online.

[Crystal] So what you're saying, everything I do is in service of proving your points? Got it. Got it, Frank.

[Frank] Or you reaffirm my beliefs, my belief system.

[Crystal] Yes, good.

[Frank] Let's --

[Crystal] Wait. But wait. Before we move on, I just want to let you know that apparently there are modern reproductions of this wheel in Rochester, New York. So we should go visit.

[Frank] All right. The producer will have to link this picture in the chat because it's sort of cool. It is very -- I'm going to put that on Insta, my darling, I think.

[Crystal] Okay, you should on Instagram also have like a clock that goes down until when Jefferson Market opens so that my roommate can stop asking me this question.

[Frank] Just say -- well, I'm not going to say it. Okay. How -- I have to ask, well, how did you come across this wheel thing, this book wheel? How did you even get there? Just crossing around.

[Crystal] All sorts of things pass through my Twitter, Reddit, Instagram feeds.

[Frank] So books, books, books, MacBooks.

[Crystal] MacBooks.

[Frank] MacBooks. So I sort of had a great time.

[Crystal] Oh, did you?

[Frank] With the book I read. Yeah.

[Crystal] Really?

[Frank] I think you're going to be quite intrigued. Something unexpected in a way.

[Crystal] Wait. Before we can do that? Was that -- was the Jefferson Market the thing that you were trying to tell me and Chris earlier?

[Frank] What?

[Crystal] That you wanted to tell us during the --

[Frank] Oh, no. All right. What? No, I was going to say is that, you know, how we read books together every other week or every once in a while. And I am -- this is my big announcement. That might be problematic or put it -- it might put a crimp in those plans because I've -- with a colleague I met at Battery Park City, the library I'm currently working at while waiting for Jefferson Market, she and I want to read Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy. So it's 800 pages. It's a book I've always wanted to read. She was excited about it. I'm sort of cheating on you, I guess, Crystal.

[Crystal] It sounds like.

[Frank] I know. It's just [multiple speakers] I'm trying to be like, don't hate me, honey. I love you so, but I do have this book.

[Crystal] The next recording, we're not going to read a book together because you're reading a book with somebody else, is what I'm hearing.

[Frank] Well, she's doing it as a public program, actually. She's doing --

[Crystal] That doesn't make it better if you're doing it publicly.

[Frank] And I said I would join her because we sort of bonded in lots of ways. I mean --

[Crystal] Oh my God.

[Frank] Well, like -- but wait. Like I said before about how I thrive in personal collaboration, like I worked with her and she and I worked on these projects at Battery Park that were so much fun. So I got -- I know, see --

[Crystal] I feel so afraid right now.

[Frank] I'm so sketchy. No, so.

[Crystal] I'm going to be -- you see me dabbing my tears away. I mean, this is mostly from allergies but also be tears [inaudible].

[Frank] But I'll milk it for all it's worth. Yeah, so she did -- she's -- her group, her book group, wanted to read more classics and they decided on that one, Anna Karenina. So this colleague of mine wants to do it in person in February and March. Like it's going to be read -- it's 800 pages, so we're reading in installments of like 200 pages. So we have like four sessions of this discussion group, which may end up online or not. And I was just like, yeah, I'll do it. Even though it always makes me anxious because how am I going to work the podcast and all that? And I just thought, well, you know what? I'm not faking it. Like I'm going to be real and if I talk about Anna Karenina for the next three podcasts, you're just going to have to deal with it. So that's why I'm going to be preoccupied with that. So the thing is you can join in.

[Crystal] Oh my God, I knew this was coming.

[Frank] She's like, I don't want to read a heavy Russian novel 800 pages. Please.

[Crystal] Eight hundred pages and I already know what happens at the end. I don't want to read.

[Frank] That's a great point, because I do too. Of course, a lot of people know what happens at the end. They've seen the movie and they just heard it in the culture. But part of what I discussed with this colleague is that it might be an interesting experience knowing what's coming. You sort of see the clues or -- it's a different experience. I don't usually like knowing a thing about a book, but its 800 pages so I'm really curious to see the execution. It's not just like then she does what she does, Anna Karenina. So I'm -- I was into -- I committed. I committed, my darling, Crystal. I committed. So that's going to be my preoccupation over the next bunch of weeks so.

[Crystal] How many weeks? I want to know how long this affair is going to last.

[Frank] Into March, baby. I mean, I've already started it and I did read another book this time because I couldn't resist. Usually, I can't -- like I've said before, I can't read more than one book at a time. I feel very loyal, shall I say? And also in terms of concentration, like I want to just focus on one. But I actually could not resist the book I read for today. So it might happen again. I just want to give a heads up that I'm going to be mostly preoccupied with Anna Karenina and I will just talk about it. But I also want to read more articles that are interesting. I brought up one before, the trauma article in Harper's. So I'm going to work it but that's my preoccupation. You can do as you please. So hopefully, we'll -- we're going to have more guests certainly coming up, but I'm going to be sort of out of Crystal-Frank read together commission. This is like breaking all the rules but you know what? Reading is organic. It happens the way it happens and it really proves the other point about, I was with a colleague who I got very close to. We worked very closely together and I was like, I want to do [multiple speakers] she's very excited because we were in person talking and she got me excited about it and that's how I thrive. I think that a lot of us thrive like with other people. So it wasn't cheating on you. It was more just like, you know, polyamorous.

[Crystal] I mean, that's fine.

[Frank] Polyamory. The Frank Collerius story. Please darling, don't make me feel guilty. You're emotional manipulator. All right. That said, let's leave that aside for a moment. Your hurt feelings can come out when you read my tarot cards or I do. We should talk about the books you read already.

[Crystal] Yes. Yes.

[Frank] So, are you deferring to me [multiple speakers]?

[Crystal] Yeah, I'm deferring to you because I was about to mute to blow my nose.

[Frank] All right. Mute to blow your nose and I'll start talking. So guess what I read? I read a review of a new translation of this book in The New Yorker and it made me really interested to read the book. And the book is Bambi.

[Crystal] Wait, hold on. What?

[Frank] Bambi.

[Crystal] Like the Disney movie?

[Frank] Well, that's the thing. Is -- well, I didn't know about this, that Bambi, the Disney movie, was based on a book written in the '20s by an Austrian author named -- oh dear. Felix. Sorry, Felix Salten.

[Crystal] Do you have the book? Show me the cover.

[Frank] This is one version that the library has. I mean --

[Crystal] Oh, so it really is a about a deer. Okay.

[Frank] So yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Crystal] Unless it's like a metaphor for something else.

[Frank] It's basically -- what?

[Crystal] Oh, unless it's like a metaphor for something else like an [multiple speakers].

[Frank] Well, that's the thing. It's called Bambi, a Life in the Woods, by Felix Salten. It was written in the early '20s, 1923 and translated in English in 1928, because it was originally written in German. And I had no idea. Like the legend of the Disney movie just took over and sort of put the book aside like it was popular in the '20s. But it wasn't -- it didn't persist through the -- well, it's still in print. And the thing about the review I read that made me interested to read it, was that it just recently came into the public domain and for 100 years, it was not -- it was one translation by Whitaker Chambers, which is the one I read. And there's a brand new translation that's coming out in February, I believe. But I just -- from the review, I just had to read it. I was just like, I want to see what this is about. And it was an incredible experience I must say. I mean, it's, -- I remember the Disney version for the mom's death, of course. Like, you know, when the mom dies, like Bambi's mother. Did you see the movie? Do you remember?

[Crystal] Yeah, when I was pretty young. I remember some parts.

[Frank] It may be -- What?

[Crystal] Thumper the rabbit. I had a little flipper toy.

[Frank] I was going to say like that's the three things I remember most is Thumper because he was hilarious. And the -- oh, the -- for some reason, I was obsessed and we used to listen to it in a car on an eight-track tape, which was drip, drip, drop, little April showers. And I don't remember anything else. A song about spring and April showers and I just loved that song as a kid. I remember pushing the eight-track tape into the car, eight-track tape player, and listening to that song over and over. I know there's something because it starts with an instrumentals drop sounding, like drop, drop, drop, drop. And then a chorus goes drip, drip, drop little April showers. And it turns into a very chorus like sweeping song. But that was what I remembered and I didn't have a particular like love for it in my adult years, like look back on Bambi. It was just part of the Disney landscape that we were all exposed to. But the book was a far different experience. Thumper does not exist in the book, really. There's a rabbit but the rabbit's very sad and sort of not like enthusiastic like Thumper. But where to begin? I mean, it -- first of all, it is a children's book. It's cataloged.

[Crystal] That's my other question. I was like, is this written for adults? Yeah.

[Frank] It -- but I guess it's -- I guess it -- yeah. I mean, Disney got the rights I guess, and made the movie but it is for children. But I guess it's part of that -- definitely part of that culture of when -- like Grimms' Fairy Tales when children's stories were very dark and sometimes -- and violent to teach morality, I think, like to sort of capture their imagination and scare them in a way to act well. I mean, something that we're probably less inclined to do in the culture today, I would think. Because you do read it and you think, well, kids, what they -- what would they make of this? And it is pretty harsh. And I think if a parent wanted to share this book with a kid, I think it would be great if the parent read it to the kid, because a sort of soothing, parental voice telling some of these dark stories in Bambi might make a lot better. But kids can take a lot and they sort of also can turn off when they're like, no, that's too much. Or they can talk about it. But -- and that's probably the most important thing, is talk about it with your parent. But -- so it's incredible. I mean, it's basically a story of a deer who's born into the forest and his, you know, educational coming of age until he's -- reaches full maturity. I mean, that's the story in a nutshell and all his adventures and I would say, people he meets along the way with other animals. I mean, there's definitely an inter-species relationships here in terms of like friends with like a rabbit, or the pheasants, or a squirrel, or an owl and they -- he all interacts. There's no skunk like in the Disney movie named Flower. That was a cute Disney invention. But it's, as you can imagine, like something that takes place in nature. It's -- you know, it's very exultant and beautiful, like the nature writing in the book is very beautiful. But as you could also imagine as an adult looking at it, it's very brutal in its like discussion of nature. I mean, you know, Bambi is born and is described as like unseen and on shaky legs and sort of like this very fragile thing that comes into the world. And he starts -- he's very happy at the beginning because he's sort of just learning and he's experiencing the sensory joy of being in the woods and all the animals he encounters and the nature he encounters and it's also new and exciting and a little scary of course, but it gets scarier as he gets more aware of the world in which he lives. And right away, there's indications of like the brutality of life and nature of which we are a part of, where -- like, you know, for example, like his mother is very loving at the when Bambi is born, like, you know, my darling Bambi, I love you and, you know, soon enough when there is an alarm in the woods and everyone runs, all the animals run for safety, the mom runs too and all she says to Bambi is run and follow me. But she doesn't stop, which you expect a mom -- and be with the kid. She's like, you move and then go. And then later even, as Bambi grows up, he's always with his mom and she does die in the book, like in the movie. But before that he -- she disengages. Like there's a part where Bambi is getting older, and he wakes up and his mom is not around. Usually, she's always around and he's looking for her through the forest and saying, mom, mom, like bleating, mom, mom. And an old stag appears, adult deer, and a male deer that you later find out is probably Bambi's dad, but appears and just says, your mother doesn't need you anymore. Your mother's not here for you anymore. And that's a crazy harsh message, right there. And Bambi has not grown to full maturity and the stag says basically like, your mom has other things to do. What are you afraid of being alone? Which is a huge message in the book, this idea of being afraid to be alone and that being alone is one of the only pathways to true wisdom or understanding of life. It's a very existential book, which is of course right up my alley. So -- but I loved it. I mean, I want to read the new translation to see how they compare. I mean, there's some crazy intense scenes. I'm looking at some of the notes that I made. Like oh, like Faline. Remember Faline, the doe, the female deer?

[Crystal] Yeah, vaguely.

[Frank] Okay, you're a female deer. A ray, a drop of golden sun, me. A name I call myself. See I didn't know I was going to sing that. Far, a long, long way to run.

[Crystal] That is the best musical.

[Frank] So I know. It's the only one, according to you. But --

[Crystal] Well, I enjoy that.

[Frank] Faline is in the movie and she's the young girl, deer, doe, who, you know, you think, oh, that's Bambi's, you know, love partner. And in the movie, you know, they end up having their own little fawns and Bambi is the king of the forest or whatever. But in this, it doesn't quite end up that way. And not only that, when they clench their love for each other, it's when Bambi, as he's getting older, fights another buck, sort of for domination and also for Faline's love, and wins. And the other buck sort of is bleeding and sort of slings away or limps away after Bambi sort of antlers him in a male on male sort of domination fight. And what is Faline's reaction? Laughter. And not only laughter, when the other buck slings away and Bambi is victorious, that's the first time Faline says, I love you, after her potential mate dominates and then indicates, I suppose, in the natural world that he will be able to protect her and protect her possible future children. But it's crazy that -- you would not see in the Disney movie where the doe is like laughing when he wins and the other one's injured and then says, I love you. Out of that violence comes her professing of her love. I mean, there's a lot of scenes like that. There's a fox who gets killed by dogs. It's pretty brutal. And Faline and Bambi's relationship just fades away in a way. Like she even -- yeah, he becomes very solitary, which is what I said before about the message of being alone. Like his fate or not his fate, but his trajectory is guided by the old stag, which is his dad really, is to accept the fact that you are alone in the world and that the only way to get through it is to be alone and realize you are only alone. And at one point Faline says, you know, we always spent time together we don't anymore. And he -- and Bambi says, I prefer to be alone. And Faline says, do you love me? And Bambi says, I don't know. I mean, Bambi. I know. I cried twice in this book, I have tell you.

[Crystal] Really?

[Frank] I really did. I cried twice.

[Crystal] Was that more or less than in the movie, like when you watch the movie? Have you seen the movie?

[Frank] I saw it as a child like you too. I don't remember a lot of it. At the top, I just said a couple things I remember. But I don't remember all of it and, you know, like I said, it ends with Bambi with Faline and their little new babies, him on a crag, triumphant as survivor of the forest. But the family unit is, as you'd imagine in '40s, '50s, Disney, you know, is completely reaffirmed. But in this, he's alone. And not only that, at the end he says to a fawn he encounters like, you better -- you're going to have to -- you can't be -- you better get your act together because you're going to be alone too and you have to. And that's the end.

[Crystal] So he was just like the old buck from the beginning?

[Frank] Right. He's --

[Crystal] Cycle --

[Frank] Like, yeah, like an educational journey and, you know, guided by this male dad figure. But not really guided. It's -- he doesn't -- I mean, well, that's not true. The old stag does give Bambi a lot of advice and imparts wisdom, but it's all to the end of, you must face your life alone. And at the end, you know, the old stag says -- well, there's a great scene where I didn't even mention, where all the animals of the forest mostly regard humans as and whenever they refer to a human being, it's always a capital, like He. Always, He. Capital He. Like God in a way, because the humans are God because they come in with guns and they kill animals. A lot is made of that and a lot -- it's so interesting how they talk about the guns. They sometimes -- they debate at one point about how the gun is like an extra hand or the most powerful fire hand and then another animal says, no, it's more like it's an extra tooth because the tooth bites you. And they're trying to understand what a gun is. Like it's very well done that way in terms of the naivety of -- or the animals wouldn't know exactly the culture of the humans. But the old stag shows Bambi that humans are not God. He actually shows a dead body of a human who is a poacher, you think, who is killed by another hunter and says, see they die too like we do. There's another force greater than all of us. It's the only mention of a real kind of God. But he wants Bambi to understand that humans are not, they're just biological creatures like the rest of us and there is something greater than all of us out there and know this. When he knows that, the old stags basically says, well, I have to go and you can't follow because where I'm going, I have to be alone. And basically, he's going to go off into the forest and die and then Bambi will take over. It feels really strange talking about these existential issues and then saying, well then, Bambi said, because Bambi has come to -- like Bambi is almost like a girl's name now and --

[Crystal] I think we associate it with the baby fawn more so than the adults --

[Frank] Yeah. Bambi is a --

[Crystal] -- that he grows to be, I guess, is that the name stag?

[Frank] I mean, I was going to read a whole passage but I guess people can read -- should read it for themselves. There's a standalone chapter that just captured me so much that has nothing to do with Bambi or his friends. It's basically when they're heading into winter, like Bambi's first winter. He was born in the spring days, a world is always hot and sunny and beautiful. And then the winters are brutal. And that's actually where the book shows where the animals turn on each other because food is so hard to find and like a lot of the friends that Bambi has in the forest are killed by other friends. And so it's like, you know, seriously makes that point of like survival first. But there's this one chapter short, two pages, Chapter 8, where it's two oak leaves on the tip of a branch, talking to each other. And the leaves basically say like, all our friends have fallen. Like they've fallen off the tree and they see them at the, you know, way down below and they are discussing, well, I guess we're going to fall too and I wonder what happens when we do. And the other leaf is just like, no one knows. I mean, none of the leaves that have fallen have come back to tell us what we have to look forward to or what we're looking at. And, you know, then the other says, well, I'm scared. I don't know what it's about. And the other one's like, don't be scared. You know, it'll be okay. And for all the conversation of -- and point of the book about you have to be alone to survive, it's the one moment where Felix Salten the author, indicates another possibility or another human strand, because the -- one leaf says to the other, you know, do I look terrible? Like, because, you know, leaves turn colors before they fall or die. And the other one is like, no, you look great, a couple of yellow spots. But you probably are looking at me and I look terrible because I'm all like yellow and getting brown around the edges. And the other one's like, no, no, no you're fine. And then the other leaf is like, you know what? You've always been so nice and so kind to me and I'm just realizing -- and literally to quote, "I'm just realizing now how kind you really are." And then they stopped talking for a while and then one of the leaf says, oh and it's a cutoff and then she falls. And then the last line of the chapter is, and winter came. Oh my God. Like.

[Crystal] Is that one part where you cry? Because I almost felt like crying.

[Frank] I totally did on that one. It's like these two leaves talking and it's the one time in the book and they're not animals, interestingly, where it says like you've always been so kind to me. I'm just realizing now how kind you are. At their death basically, and they're basically talking about death. It's like, we don't know what's coming, but it's coming. And they even say, is it true that like many more of us will follow us? Like after we follow, there'll be more? Like, meaning the leaves will come back and grow again. And they're like and the other one is like, yeah, I think so. I mean, there is made in the book, the concept of time because one of the bugs in the book was like, you know, looking at another animal, saying, oh, that animal is immortal. Like she sees 30 revolutions of the sun. Like meaning that animal lives 30 days. And they -- that bug says, like we'll see one or two at the most, which is a long enough life for me. Meaning they live two days. It's a fly or something and they live two days and that's a long enough life for me but yet, wow, that one lives 30 days. It sort of captures like a sense of true nature without knowing, without side effect in terms of society and culture. So like I said, when they described -- they never say the word gun. You would have to assume it. And well, they talk about it when -- and they talk of flashes of fire. So it's sort of an interesting way. And then when you -- when humans first come on the scene, you're not sure it sounds like monsters, really. You're just like who -- and then you realize, oh, they're just human hunters. There's so much more in here, but it's not exactly of what to read next because it's not exactly happy, happy. But what do you expect from me? I thought it was great.

[Crystal] You said the author was Felix Salten?

[Frank] Mm-hmm.

[Crystal] Is that the author?

[Frank] Yes, there's a whole other -- I didn't really go there because I saw it this way, but I did -- the author himself was a Jew, an Austrian Jew, in the '20s and he immigrated to Switzerland because Swiss were giving free citizen -- or free -- full citizenship to Jews who were already being persecuted in Austria. And you know, 10 years later, Hitler would be in power or less. And there was of course already persecution and some critics have seen Bambi as a possible sort of allegory for, you know, persecuted people and --

[Crystal] That's my thought.

[Frank] -- pogroms and things like that. And you certainly do that. You could view that way.

[Crystal] When you were first talking about like the way the humans were described with like the guns and the capital H and all that actually my first thought was like indigenous peoples, right? And so it's interesting that like -- I did wonder, I was like, what was happening in this person's like time period in life for them to write a story like this that seems so pointed in the messaging? And hearing what you said about the fact that he was Jewish and was living during this time, like it makes a lot of sense.

[Frank] Yeah, I mean, I feel like it's a book sort of like The Alchemist Paulo Coelho, where you read it again or read it other times, you get different things from it, I think. I mean, I really enjoyed it though. I mean, I thought it was -- I'm very curious to read the new translation to see how it holds up or compares. But --

[Crystal] There's a second book?

[Frank] -- I love Bambi. What?

[Crystal] Bambi's child?

[Frank] It is equal to Bambi?

[Crystal] Is there -- maybe there isn't. Maybe I'm -- is there Bambi's Children?

[Frank] Bambi.

[Crystal] Oh yeah, he did. So he composed another book, according to his Wikipedia page, based on the character Bambi, titled Bambi's Children, The Story of a Forest Family.

[Frank] Interesting. I did not know that.

[Crystal] His stories, Perri and The Hound of Florence, inspired the Disney films, Perri and The Shaggy Dog. So they have been using him as a source material for a while.

[Frank] Clearly. Interesting how Disney came across this writer. I guess the books were popular in the '30s but became forgotten the author. But one of the books was like a nobleman who is -- because he wrote a lot about animals. Is forced to live as the dog. Like his soul was in the body of a dog who's owned by the archduke. And in the review I read, it's mentioned, and this was much change for the Disney movie, The Shaggy Dog. So yeah, he became -- this German author became Disney's source material. Interesting. But I did love Bambi. Anyway, my darling Bambi love.

[Crystal] Oh, and he had -- one of his children's name was Anna Katharina, just very similar to Anna Karenina.

[Frank] Karenina. She was an actress. He went to live with her in Switzerland.

[Crystal] Which has just triggered me about your affair.

[Frank] And he lived with her when he went to Switzerland. Anyway. Yeah, really interesting, right?

[Crystal] Yeah, I was not expecting a children's book to really engage with those existential themes.

[Frank] I know.

[Crystal] And I also wonder if it was categorized that way, post-Disney movie and that's, you know, sort of the presumption of it?

[Frank] Right. Well, you know, our children's librarians really look at books and decide what goes in the collection, certainly. I mean, there's no reason why it can't be.

[Crystal] Yeah. Like you also see this working for like adult audiences too.

[Frank] Oh my God, it works for me.

[Crystal] We have books that will straddle multiple collections because of those reasons and so, yeah, I guess it being like the classic section. Yes.

[Frank] So what did you read, darling?

[Crystal] So I'm going to -- I guess I'll talk about two books. I don't know. I feel -- I'm actually feeling kind of tired because I was like -- you took me on such a journey with the leaves.

[Frank] No. Like no pressure. You don't to have to do on and on. I'm more than happy to dominate the show.

[Crystal] So I'm going to quickly talk about that because I don't know I kind of want to like go back and start thinking more about Bambi and those leaves, God.

[Frank] The oak leaves.

[Crystal] I know. It's like that is so compelling and there's like two pages that I did that and I was like near tears that -- but -- so I'll talk about two books and I'll tell you why. So the book that I had intended talking about was Belly of the Beast: The Politics of Anti-Fatness as Anti-Blackness by Da'Shaun Harrison. I read it on Libby and I think I was in like my auto-brain mode and as soon as I finished, I returned it. And I was like, no, I need this to like take notes on. And I put myself back in line for it but it's like a six or seven-week wait. So I'm going to just talk briefly about it and hope I get like most of it right. So the book itself, like it starts off with like a foreword with Kiese Laymon, who is like one of my favorite writers, right? So all ready I'm like, yes, I'm here for it. And it touches on all these different topics about the intersection of like anti-fatness with anti-blackness. And author goes into desirability politics, like the ideas of tHin, with a capital H, Pretty with a capital P, as these kind of commodities that were -- we learn to value. And that's something too that I think Tressie McMillan Cottom in her book of essays called Thick also really investigates in a really intriguing kind of way that like I was like, oh, I've like never really thought about beauty as this commodity that we're all kind of trained to sort of engage in, right? And her rejection of that, which I thought was like amazing. And the book also, you know, it goes through some really difficult subjects. It talks really frankly, about the devaluation of the lives of fat people and particularly fat black people. And Eric Garner, George Floyd, Tamir Rice, Michael Brown and how not -- it was like not only their blackness that painted them as a threat, but also their fatness or their physical size. Like Tamir Rice being a child but being portrayed as this person who was very adult-like, blah, blah as a way to justify murder, you know. So it does go into these like really difficult topics. It also provided this other example, like Eric Garner being described as like, I think in the trials, like frail due to his weight, right? Like close to hypertension and like other health issues as a way, again, to justify his murder. Like, you know -- but I think the author makes this point of like, of course, in no police encounters should you come out of it losing your life, but the lives of these people were devalued due to their fatness and their blackness. And another example of like a girl at camp who was made to run, was not able to like -- couldn't run anymore, was like her body couldn't take it, I think like collapse, and the camp counselors just like laughing, having sodas. And she did not get the care she needed and was like passed away for it. And that kind of devaluation of fatness and people who are fat. And I think it was a really interesting book. It's a pretty short book. It touches on like these other different ideas about like the cage of our bodies, right? And how that kind of constrains people. And I think it's really comparable. So if you have read books like Kiese Laymon's Heavy, Tressie McMillan Cottom's Thick, and Roxane Gay's Hunger, I feel like this is another book that is really investigating those issues and is a really meaningful book to read and came out very recently. So I like highly recommend it.

[Frank] And what -- just coming off of talking about Bambi and hearing that is like just thinking about the sort of -- I don't know. I mean, you can almost think of the struggle for domination, like these sort of willful domination or marginalization of people because you can get them out of the way. And like there was a part in Bambi where Bambi is looking for his mother, a bird flies by and Bambi is like, have you seen my mother? And the bird barely stops flying and just says, why? What does she have to do with me? And keeps flying, Like, I don't care about your mother. It's like I'm trying to survive here and Bambi is alone. And there's several times where you think like, you know, someone is going to be like, give Bambi consolation. It never comes. I mean, I'm not -- just to name -- because I've been thinking about that story, about nature's brutality and the brutality of animals to animals, humans to humans, I mean, all of us to all of us, and it's just -- it seems so biologically brutal, you know. And then the language comes in to describe further how you can sort of say, oh, you're this. And the this that you are is bad. And so we're going to keep pushing that image so we stay on top. By example, we stay on top and you are always on the sidelines and discardable. You know, that's where language really comes in with humans, is that you can even further reify it by saying, oh, I'm this. You're not this, you're that and that is not good. And we're going to keep pushing that message to keep you down to keep you aside. Oh my God.

[Crystal] I think that's the -- that desirability politics that Harrison was referencing, right? The commodification of those things, of like how we look, you know. It was really interesting. I mean, that one was -- it could be a tougher read. So I feel like people should be in like a good head space for it. And it can also be triggering for sure, in the description of those police brutality and murder and stuff. So just be aware of that. I will say the other book I did want to talk about very quickly is a lot more hopeful and made you unhappy. So it's a manga and the last --

[Frank] It's manga?

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Okay. Bring us home.

[Crystal] It's a younger book so the -- you know, I talked about Blue Period, which I think is a really fantastic one with like these teens at school. This is another one with high schoolers. It's called Boys Run the Riot. There's only four volumes in it, so it's a short series, because I feel like a lot of manga series could be super overwhelming because there's 20, 60 books. This one's by Keito Gaku, if I have that pronunciation correct, hopefully. Came out last year in the U.S., the translation, and made the NYPL's best book for teens as well as a lot of other lists across the country, including like YALSA's Great Graphic Novels Book list and it follows a transgender teen Ryo. I'm going to mispronounce. Its spelled R-Y-O, but I know it's like a one syllable pronunciation. And they get together with a cisgender teen named Jin and they decide to essentially start a clothing line called Boys Run the Riot. And this is -- and I don't know if it's just like my personal perspective and why I'm drawn to these stories, it has a lot of similarities with Blue Period because it has these teens who are hyper-focused, right? On following their dreams and their passion and in any ways, especially for Boys Run the Riot, bucking the conventions, right? And in a lot of ways failing, right? They discover, for example, in volume 4, that they meet this guy who is wearing their shirts on the street, right? And they're like, oh my God, you're wearing our shirt. That's amazing. And he's like, yeah, you know, I don't like really like the art, but I think it's cool what you're doing. I like the passion of you as high schoolers doing this and it reminds me of when I was younger, when I was also kind of like a young artist, et cetera. And for the team to kind of grapple with that, where it's like, oh, like our art or like the brand is not what we wanted to be but we have to improve. So they go to him, they're like, you know, be our master, teach us, guide us and he does that. And I kind of like this idea again of these teens who are passionate, who are like learning, who are growing and who just like don't give up, even when they are being patronized by adults in different ways, right? And kind of rejecting that and just still kind of going forward in pursuing their path. I think it's just like a really great lesson like not just for teenagers but for adults too. So I really recommend that one.

[Frank] Are they told that the only way to survive is to be alone?

[Crystal] [Inaudible] opposite because I think, you know, for the main character, they don't -- I don't think they really fit in until they meet Jin, who is also this kind of like odd character who kind of comes off as a bully, but actually just really accepts Ryo for who he is, right? And they go out like there's another couple of friends and they also like talk about prejudice and discrimination. In like the third book, I think, Ryo is outed -- or is it Ryo? Again, I apologize for mispronouncing. Gets outed as being transgender from another person within the LGBTQ community and like kind of dealing with that. They're also dealing with how to market their brand or like, are we marketing this brand towards a certain community or not? It actually had a quote line, which is the value of having the book, right? Let's see. I can't find my -- where did I put my chapter break?

[Crystal] I legit put up the [inaudible] but I have lost it. Okay, no, no. Okay, okay, okay, okay, all right. So Jin says, what do we make and who for? That's the question. And one person says for LGBTQ people or minorities in general. But if you do that and aim for one kind of person, it could really limit your audience a lot. And the main character says, I don't think so. Everything I've been putting into my work so far wasn't just me trying to appeal to people as someone who's trans and I don't think the drive to make it just comes from my discomfort with my body. It's something more than that. How do I put it? And they kind of like talk more about it and then he says, oh, I didn't -- this is maybe somebody else saying this, I wonder why your art, which seems to be at a glance about being freed from gender, resonates so much with us. If it resonate with us, I'm sure it'll resonate with even more people. So I feel like to be really interesting, like them talking out like all of these different subjects that are like often like challenging subjects, right? For teens and for adults too and working their way through it. And I think that was also really interesting because the author is also trans and it felt a little bit like the author kind of like sharing their own sort of experience too and their own thinking process through the pages of this book. So I also really appreciate that. But yeah, if there is a manga series to read and you want something that is low commitment for volumes, they're all out so you can get them at NYPL, so Boys Run the Riot by Keito Gaku. You're muted Frank.

[Frank] Boy. Is it Boys Run the Riot you said was the term?

[Crystal] Yeah, that's the name of their clothing brand.

[Frank] Four volumes. Wow.

[Crystal] Yeah, very doable.

[Frank] Interesting. Oh my God.

[Crystal] It's no Anna Karenina, 800 pages. It's very doable.

[Frank] Very manageable.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] I'll take on the hard stuff, baby, so you don't have to. Well, you just talked about an intense book, though. Intensity. Wow. I feel like, I don't know. I'm in one of those -- after hearing you talk and after hearing myself talk, just feeling this haze of other worldly haze in a way that books can make you in. Because I think that feeling is when the -- when books make you feel real, something real, and you're sort of half aware that it's also a book that you read in between you and your -- the book in your brain. So it's not in the real world but yet it's a real feeling. And I think the haze comes from that -- that magical haze comes from that tension between, oh, I'm actually talking in the real world, but I feel this emotion that was shared with me from this book and it's mine. But yet, I'm also in the real world but yet not.

[Crystal] Can we say this with our virtual meeting backgrounds with the rainy days?

[Frank] It does make an -- see, visuals make an impact because we're looking at each other with the background of a rainy window and books piled on the cafe table or -- and it is rainy today. So it's, I guess, rainy day feelings. To rainy days and Mondays always get me down. The Carpenters, baby.

[Crystal] We'll do like a really bright virtual background next time to see if it changes like the mood. Oh my gosh, it does. Existential. I do want to say --

[Frank] Considering I'll be talking about Anna Karenina [multiple speakers] foray.

[Crystal] Maybe I'll watch the movie and talk about that. No.

[Frank] I don't want to hear. Someone recommended the Keira Knightley version and then there's older versions, Vivien Leigh, Greta Garbo, but I'm not going to watch them until -- or if I watch them, until after I finish. I want to read the book. And they're -- I have started and then it's I'm enjoying it but let's -- you know, next time I'll talk about how I've gotten into it. I think the next time -- yeah, the next time we talk, I'll have had the first session of the book discussion program that my colleague is doing that I'm participating in. So I should come, hopefully, coherent, organized, presentory. Presentory? All right. Done.

[Crystal] Do you want to -- because I know we're about to wrap up. I do want to say one thing to your previous comments about like, I think the specialness of books. The specialist books in art, which I think literature kind of follows -- falls under the umbrella of art in a lot of ways too, is I think that it's like a conduit for this kind of human connection that happens, where you can be like alone in your room and you're reading the words of this other person and you're getting this kind of glimpse into their minds. And I think that's amazing. Like that's -- there's nothing really like that in life. So I don't know. I guess it just speaks to the power of books.

[Frank] And it's not visual except with the visuals you create in your head. So there's an extra meeting for that too, because it is created by you in a way, in conjunction with the author's words. I don't know. You're right. I know we don't have time now I feel like, I was going to pass but I want to do a tarot card.

[Crystal] Yes, do it. Okay. Did you -- you shuffled it? You knocked it. Oh boy, come on.

[Frank] All right. I saw one, but --

[Crystal] You can -- wait, how are you doing this?

[Frank] All right. You got to calm down.

[Crystal] I know. I'm anxious now because I feel like we're going to get a bad card.

[Frank] Now I'm just curious the mood that we're in, the emotional -- I'm doing it the way I do it. That's my way to do. Stop telling me what to do.

[Crystal] Look, these are not my rules. These are the internet rules. They say swap cards [multiple speakers] knock the cards.

[Frank] I bow to no one. I'm doing this.

[Crystal] [Inaudible] pull multiple cards [multiple speakers] --

[Frank] Look at this. It's the six of swords.

[Crystal] Oh wow. Okay.

[Frank] Look at the picture with the like --

[Crystal] Yeah, it's all swords.

[Crystal] Almost like six --

[Frank] Yeah, let me get rid of this. Can you see it?

[Crystal] Kind of. Oh yeah, I see it.

[Frank] With like two people in a boat. The guy is rowing two people in a boat that -- facing away from him. So it looks like almost the river sticks, but death on my mind, with six swords in the boat. So the six of swords. The -- yeah, it's six. All right. A ferryman carrying passengers in his punt or boat to the further shore. Divinatory meanings, journey by water, route, way, envoy, commissary expedience. Reversed. What does it mean when tarot cards reversed? Declaration, confession, publicity. One account says that it is a proposal of love if the card is reversed.

[Crystal] I think it's like when you pull it and you flip it over, it is upside down.

[Frank] Now I pulled it up right and set up.

[Crystal] Or when you -- okay. [Multiple speakers]

[Frank] Journey by water, which is pretty straightforward. But -- so the only real adjective that it gives is expedient and expedience.

[Crystal] Oh, wait. So the journey -- I will say there wasn't a metaphor in Boys Run the Riot, where the teens were -- I think they were talking about like the metaphor like being on the ship, like just being out, rudderless in the ocean or whatever, with their brands and their mentor was like, you need to figure out what your destination is and then you can build towards that. That's really important for making this business. Maybe it's like related to that.

[Frank] Well, I mean, I wanted something more high flowing that would make me cry and then we could leave and in tears. It was my dream. But now that I -- now that you say what you just said, I think it also says that Bambi's journey was -- Bambi -- it was a journey to a further shore. It was starting out an expedient journey to maturity in the way that the book demanded that he become mature. He came to fruition in terms of the politics and the feelings of the book. It wasn't like Bambi diverted. The author had Bambi come to the ideological conclusion he wanted him to come to. So it was an expedient journey. The picture was much more evocative with like this hunched over people in the boat. I thought it was going to be like taking them to death land, of course. Anyway, let's get out of here. I love your little tarot card idea. It's so fun. Thanks, Crystal.

[Crystal] Yeah, I like that we can draw connections.

[Frank] Added this to ribbon so it's 20 tight minutes rather than an hour of rambling blubber.

[Crystal] All right.

[Frank] What? You have a final word, baby?

[Crystal] Oh, are we still recording?

[Frank] I don't know. All right. Let's go. Bye. Thank you everybody for listening, very much so. I want to talk more about some comments regarding to, but we'll do that next time. Okay. Bye.

[Narrator] Thanks for listening to The Librarian Is In, a podcast by the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play. Or send us an email at podcasts@nypl.org. For more information about the New York Public Library, please visit nypl.org. We're produced by Christine Farrell. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Crystal Chen.